Fear of Islam –Insight SBS: Truth, lies and evasion.

Saturday, 06 November 2010 00:51 Circe Confronting Islam - Infidel Resistance
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On Tuesday night (2/11/10), the SBS Insight program presented a discussion on the growing ‘Fear of Islam.’  While I congratulate Insight on presenting the program, as the topic was fear of Islam, one might have expected more comment from non-Muslims, ex-Muslims and those who have lived under Islamic repression who can explain the rational basis of this fear.  Unfortunately a lot of time was taken by western Muslims engaged in Taqiyya (lying), dissimulation and evasion who either couldn’t or wouldn’t confront the reality of Islam’s frightening text and laws and Islam’s 1400 long violence and repression of others.  

Many of the Muslims had always lived in the west and had no experience of life under Islam and its laws.  Cult members cannot carry out a critical analysis of the cult or view it as outsiders do.   Had those challenging Islam  been allowed to refer directly to Islam's text and laws, they could have provided EVIDENCE to support their claims rather than viewers having to decide between 'opinions.'

Truth and lies:
Because the Muslims failed to counter the claims made by others, there is no point actually examining this from the point of the questions asked or posed by the host.   (note where I quote I try to be as accurate as I can but there will be some poorly heard words etc)

The US contingent-
*Reza Aslan –US Muslim  -- blamed the growing fear of Islam in the US on people  ‘otherising’ Islam and using it as a scapegoat for all their problems.

(Naturally, nothing wrong with Islam.  No attempt at all to critically analyse Islam and this was found for all the Muslim respondents)

*Nonie Darwish – ExMuslim from Egypt now a US Christian.  She noted that the media didn’t inform the public ...
“moderate Muslims whitewash the fears of the west.  Islamic doctrine promotes violence against non-Muslims.”

She notes that 60% of the Koran was devoted to cursing, hatred and violence against non-Muslims.

“they want to achieve conquering the world.  Islam is much more than a religion, it’s a way of life.  It’s a one party political system that has a very elaborate legal system that can put you to death if you leave it”

*Randa Abdel-Fattah (Australian Muslim) whose full comments will be noted below, also insultingly referred to Nonie as
“some ‘Islamophobic cash- cow , because really, people like that are allowed to assume a heroic status as somehow escaping Islam and living to tell the tale.  They are sort of religions whistle blowers on Islam precisely because there is this constructed image of Islam as a hateful religion”

 

(Wow is this the pot calling the kettle black!  The unhijabed Randa is the 'moderate' Muslim cash-cow with her books and talks.

Nonie doesn’t have a western ‘constructed’ image of Islam, Randa, she grew up Muslim in a Muslim country –something YOU haven’t done!  She is a native speaker of Arabic and could read the Koran in its perfect Arabic form which the majority of Muslims cannot do so she really does know what it says.  As an adult, after moving to the US she began to see there was an alternative to Islam and realised what she had been brainwashed into –she left.  AND she is heroic because those who leave get DEATH THREATS and this threat on their life is even greater if they dare to criticise Islam.   I know a young man here who has left Islam and has been told that if he is found, he will die!   Nonie so far has survived threats.  Well, Randa, I think a religion whose prophet and laws demand that those that leave be killed needs to be EXPOSED!
Randa’s nasty insult shows that she has no argument against Nonie’s true statements about Islam.)

*Nonie Darwish-
“There is no need for any whistle blower.  The Koran is there.  We don’t need to be a genius or great thinker to read these verses .... this tells Muslims to prepare every effort and everything  and to use the horses of war and terrorism against non-Muslims.  It’s all over the Koran.

* Reza Aslan:  first he complains about having to respond to Nonie .....
“It’s convenient to pick and choose whatever violent bits you find in the Koran and ignore equally important verses that talk about compassion and peace.  There’s nothing strange or unusual about the Koran; the same torah that gives us the 10 commandments also commands Jews to enact genocide on every non-believer of  Yanay (Yanah?) –the same gospel that tells us to turn the other cheek also says that Jesus says ‘I have brought the sword, not peace .......

“Scripture always talks about war and peace, love and hatred, compassion and bigotry that’s why it’s important.  It was written 5000 years ago and is still read today because it can be understood.  Only an ideologue or bigot would choose to focus on one part of scripture and ignore other parts.”

(Reza actually admits there are nasty verses but tries to pretend there are equally important  --and numerous? –nice ones!  He neglects Islam’s law of ABROGATION where the supposedly later written Medina text over-rides all earlier text.  The Medina text is filled with abuse and violence to women and lies, abuse, threats and calls to fight and kill others.   This call to kill others continues in the equally important hadith  and Islam’s laws.

I don’t possess a Torah, but I do have an old testament.  The Jews were told ‘thou shalt not kill’ but god suspended this only at a particular time/place/ group giving the Jews permission to fight to defend themselves if needed.  At no time were Jews told to go out and kill others until all the religion was Judaism or judgement day had come!

And Jesus and the verse of the sword --- Reza needs to read the whole text in context and in the context of the teachings of Jesus.   At no time did Jesus tell his followers to take up their sword to slaughter others so all the religion would be Christian and he did not kill others.
Jesus first taught his ideas to the Jews --- and he knew this would cause trouble, it would draw swords against his followers and draw a metaphorical sword between families as some chose to follow him.

Matthew 10.32 -36
32 "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him I will confess also before my Father in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father in heaven. 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth, I came not to send peace but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance with his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter—in—law against her mother—in—law—
36 a man's foes shall be they of his own household

Similar text is found in Luke 12:49—53 where the word DIVISION is used in place of  SWORD --

Luke 12.49-53 "I am come to send fire on the earth, and what  will I if it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with (death), and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51 Suppose yea that I am come to give peace on earth?  I tell you nay; but rather  division. 52 From henceforth there shall be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 the father shall be divided  against the son and the son against the father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother—in—law against daughter—in—law and daughter—in—law against mother—in—law."

Later when Jesus was betrayed and arrested in the garden of Gethsemane and Peter struck off the ear of one of those involved, Jesus made him stop and told his followers to put up their swords --

Matthew 26:52—53 says:
52 Then Jesus said unto him, Put up again thy sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword  53 Thinkest thou that I cannot pray to my Father and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"

As Nonie says, READ the text.  I’m an atheist but I read both the Bible and Islamic text (koran, hadith, sira and laws) The violence in the koran where people are killed simply because they don’t believe and the demand that this continue until all the religion is allah’s or judgement day arrives has no match in Christian text.
Indeed many Muslims claim the supremacy of Islam over Christianity because Islam has jihad to enforce its religious and political will on all.

Reza Aslan's deliberate misuse of this text adds to his shame and highlights his inability to tell the truth

Re Sharia:
*Reza Aslan:  He makes the astonishing statement that there is really no such thing as sharia and claims it’s not a monolithic continuum but multiple competing schools constructing some kind of civic, penal and family law code that abides by Islamic values and principles....
He then implies that Islam’s financial law (actually a very modern invention – which may include no interest as Islam requires but certainly extracts extra by various other means) is popular...particularly since the global economic meltdown. (Did he miss Dubai’s meltdown?).
He then talks of how sharia is linked to an identity and that Muslims want sharia to play a role in their life particularly in family law.  Next he attempts to sell this as similar to Jewish and Catholic  ‘courts’ which may mediate in certain areas between willing participants. 
For him there is no problem with these courts as long as they don’t violate the laws of the land and there is room for appeal

(that is of course the problem, sharia law DOES violate the laws of the land and there is great reason to question how ‘voluntary’ participation is or whether females will simply shrink from any complaint of abuse, given sharia’s legalised abuse of females)

[The host asks  ‘how comfortably do those values in sharia sit with democratic values?
)
*Reza Aslan: 
“there is no such thing as values in sharia law.  It is understood in thousands of different ways ...... “
“the values you bring to sharia are the values you have –if you are a bigot, violent, misogynist then your interpretation of sharia is going to be bigoted, violent, misogynistic and if you are a democrat ...peace loving...


*Nonie Darwish: 
“Very evasive”
“Sharia law is a malignant law and totally based on the interpretation of the Koran, hadith and way of life the prophet lived ---and WHY he is whitewashing the meaning of sharia??”

“Sharia is the most oppressive system on earth; it encourages people to LIE for the benefit of Islam;

“It doesn’t allow Muslims to leave Islam and there is a death penalty in all schools of sharia against those who leave Islam.

Sharia defines what jihad is.  Sharia is very clear , it is NOT as he is trying to show it.  Jihad is defined as war against non-Muslims to establish the religion.”

“The west is concerned.  Let’s be open with them.  Why this deception?  Moderate Muslims are trying to convince the west that sharia is good..” 

*Reza Aslan:
“I don’t really have a response to that  -every single word she said is factually incorrect ...I don’t know what to say...

(WOW, have you ever heard such blatant, bald-faced lying!  Every word Nonie said is true and readily verifiable by reading Islam’s text and laws!!  Still, he is Muslim and is required to lie to protect or facilitate Islam –even when such lies are readily EXPOSED!

LIE:  In Reliance of the Traveller, Laws r8.0 p744 – r 10.0 p 748 cover permissible lying, exaggeration and giving a misleading impression.  It is permissible/obligatory to LIE to attain a praiseworthy goal eg promote Islam, conceal a Muslim..

DEATH TO APOSTATES: Koran sura 4.89 says to kill those who turn from Islam.  A large number of hadith/sunna say to kill apostates eg

***Bukhari Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:   Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."


 Laws from ALL 4 sunni schools say to kill apostates eg Reliance of the Traveller - *Law f1.3. (p 109) says become an unbeliever and you will be executed.  *Law O8.1  (p 595) says someone who apostatizes, deserves to be killed.  Many Laws allow anyone to kill the apostate  and there is no indemnity, expiation, or retaliation for killing an apostate

JIHAD:  Reliance of the traveller *Law o9.0 p 599  "Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word "mujahada”, signifying warfare to establish the religion."

The following pages cover enslavement, rape, killing, ransom, destruction of livestock/trees/property, division of the booty, the requirement for Muslims to join jihad etc!

Later, in response to a question about amputation and stoning
*Reza Aslan
“He’s talking about the very long penal codes that he finds in the multiple schools of sharia and those are absolutely, totally and completely incompatible with Human Rights, modernity, with constitutionalism, with democracy —there’s no question about that but there’s also no question that there isn’t a single Muslim individual or institution in the US that’s calling for this law”

Reza goes on to complain of states that are introducing laws to stop the introduction of sharia as he claims the US constitution forbids foreign law.  He says it’s just fear mongering and targeting Muslim communities.

(wow, so Nonie was lying but then you agree Islam has a barbaric set of laws called ‘the way’ that all Muslims must adhere to..)

In response to a comment on multiculturalism:
*Nonie Darwish: 
It’s only one-sided.  Multiculturalism in the west.  We absorb large numbers of Muslims in the west yet at the same time Christians, Jews and other minorities are fleeing the middle-east; churches are burnt, nobody’s talking about it.”

Where’s the freedom of minorities in the middle-east?  The Middle-east is now rejecting any other religion, so one-sided multiculturalism.”

“I see that ‘moderate’ Muslims in the audience are more concerned in convincing the west that Islam is a good and peaceful religion and they are NOT addressing the problems in their countries of origin.”
“They are NOT standing up to the radicals in Islam who are terrifying the west.”


The Australian contingent
Non-Muslims explaining the rational reasons to fear Islam.
In response to the hosts question that ‘you claim the west has battered woman’s syndrome in relation to Islam..’
*Mark Durie:
“Well when someone comes under abuse or attack, one of the responses is to blame yourself especially when you are locked into a relationship, being attacked regularly and making apologies for your abuser.  This affects Christians who live under Islamic circumstance more”

“One Palestinian spoke about this problem of needing to defend Islam in order to protect yourself!!

“Some people in the west have responded to the terrorist attacks by trying to look for everything that was positive in Islam –after 9/11 they tried to reach out as positively as possible but in the end, there ARE some disturbing messages in the Koran; there ARE declarations of war against non-believers; there IS a declaration that Islam should be triumphant over other religions  ----AND the problem is that this is NOT just in the book but there are preachers throughout the Islamic world that preach sermons on them.  We in the west are hearing about that.”

Re multiculturalism:
*Mark Durie:
“I have many Christians who have left the middle-east to come to Australia.  They feel they leave behind a society in which they were inferiors in their OWN land and they are disturbed about the rise of radical Islam in Australia.”

“The problem with ‘multiculturalism’ is that it’s kind of arrogant –and the arrogance is the assumption that everyone will buy into our values because they have to be superior but what’s different about Islam is it’s NOT just the food you eat or the way you dress, it’s a TOTAL  SYSTEM of life driven by values  ...Islam has values.. that is following the Koran and the example of Mohammad and they form people very profoundly and for some Muslims that creates a VERY DIFFERENT vision of a society and the HOPE that this will be established.”

“One challenge in accepting many Muslim people as in Europe that accepted many Muslim people but didn’t explain to them that we have particular values like ‘EQUALITY of ALL people before the law.'  Islam does NOT accept that everyone is equal before the law...

(We all know that Islam is a white Arab male supremacist ideology that abuses black people and others and has separate laws that apply to women, infidels, slaves and dhimmis... that are anything BUT equal!)

*Mark Durie – continuing the difficulties with Islam.
“The problem is that some of the things such as the cutting off hands ..and Reza wanted to deny apostasy laws to kill people who leave Islam, BUT they are very well based in Mohammad’s example .”

“One of the reasons people in the west ARE getting nervous about Islam is that they actually ARE reading the Koran and life of Mohammad and finding out that he declared he was the prophet who was ‘ victorious through terror   and that’s disturbing people!

** Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220:    Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, .....and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), ....

*Marco
“I was born and raised in Egypt as a Christian .  The problem is it doesn’t give me any comfort in knowing when they’re getting taught from a young age to hate specifically Christians and Jews...
and
it doesn’t give me comfort knowing that they basically memorizing in the Koran how to fight me until I believe or else”

(From Reliance of the Traveller:  Jihad Law o 9.0  p 599, quoting hadiths from Bukhari and Muslim -
the prophet (allah bless him and give him peace) said:
“ I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no god but allah and that Mohammad is the messenger of allah, and perform the prayer, and pay zakat.   If they say it, they have saved their blood and their possessions from me, except for the rights of Islam over them.  And their final reckoning is with allah.”
(also **Abu Dawud Book 14, Number 2635)

We should have heard MORE of Marco’s experiences living under Islam as such experiences reveal why the west is beginning to fear Islam.  Those who have this experience should be given FAR MORE chance to speak but instead we get Muslims winging that they don’t get a chance to speak –give me a bucket!
There are many from all parts of the earth who have fled Islamic violence and they come here and find they are silenced as we promote and protect Islam.  Many become afraid in Australia where they sought refuge!)

*Ray ?: 
“I’m a Jew with a history of thousands of years of enlightenment of what happens with people who are looking beyond primitive values.  If we tend to go back and regress towards primitive values which in some cases Islam can represent, not necessarily does but can, represent we are regressing back to primitive situations which is NOT called for in society.”

(Here, here.  As Winston Churchill said –there is no greater retrograde force than Islam)

*Judy Smith tried to tell us that our Muslims were somehow different to elsewhere and that multiculturalism is working.

(Yes, they’re different alright as Mr Zammit showed with figures he quoted from his research (Neighbour 2010).  Our Muslims are more than twice as likely as those in Europe to be jailed for terrorism! Zammit noted that since 2001,  2000 Muslim terrorists had been arrested in Europe but on 30 in Australia –but he forgot there are 53.7+million Muslims in Europe and he claims only 340,000 in Australia.   2000/53700000 [2/53,700] is much smaller than 30/340,000 [3/34,000 ] If we had the Muslim population of Europe we’d have over 4700 terrorists!  If he just meant Muslims  -terrorists and others, from western Europe, there are about 20 million Muslims so this becomes 1/10,000 arrested for terrorism which is little different to the 1/11,000 in Australia so our Muslims are at best the same and at worse, far worse!  For Muslim numbers see - http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2007/05/number-of-muslims-in-europe.html and /Wikipedia-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe and http://www.cfr.org/publication/8252/europe.html.

And it's not just 'terrorism' it's the demand for sharia, special privileges etc)  

*Ray Simpson didn’t confront any of the problems with Islam but gave the ‘feel good’ talk on new ideas and democracy.
“The more we know about other people and beliefs the better we will be.”

(Yes it certainly pays to know in advance who plans to slaughter you and instigate a totalitarian system under sharia which will strip every right, freedom and democratic ideal from you.  It’s important to know the truth so we must ask, why do we have vilification laws and why are sites and groups that criticise Islam blocked or threatened?)

*Werner Schmidlin rightly questioned the loyalty of Muslims –

(Muslim loyalty is to the Muslim Ummah FIRST)

*a man brought to notice the fact that Oklahoma is amending laws to stop sharia.  He expressed concern that for theft they chop off your hand and if a woman is raped she is stoned to death because she supposedly asked for it....

(This is where Reza agree there might be a few problems in Islam’s laws but tried the ‘there’s many views...)

Muslim contingent:
The rest was devoted to Muslims who didn’t confront the text, example of Mohammad or laws of Islam or the violence suffered by others across the Islamic world or the fact that in some areas others have been completely obliterated.  They made no effort to understand why others would rationally fear Islam.  They did not answer or refute the points made by the non-Muslims.  Instead they engaged in lies, dissimulation and evasion and blamed everyone else.  They made personal attacks on Nonie but couldn’t refute what she said because they knew that the evidence supporting her was in their text and laws.  Unlike Nonie, and some of those asking questions, the female Muslims that spoke were NOT brought up in the Islamic world under sharia or sharia related laws.

The only interesting part was an intra-Muslim disagreement between Yassir Morosi  and Mariam Z. Veiszadeh; Randa Abdel-fattah  (and Reza Aslan).  Mariam and Reza tried to make out that Islam was a massive multiplicity (of nothingness) and Randa claimed sharia had been misinterpreted – indeed no-one could know the divine will   (so why bother at all –just throw it out!).  Yassir claimed there was a central, orthodoxy to Islam...see final quotes.

* Sheik Mohamadu Nawas Saleem, Australian National Imams council ,  tried to tell  us non-Muslims reading the Koran wouldn’t find it violent and that it was a ‘blessing for everyone’  (according to the Koran)

(Well, I read the Koran all the time and I don’t know a more vile text)

The sheik later tries to defend the violent text by claiming Mohammad was confronting an enemy that was trying to eliminate his prophethood so he had to take action and the revelation guided him.

(What a load of garbage!   There is no historical context in the Koran and any that’s applied comes from the sira –a tale written about 150 years or so later –we only have a 9th century rendition.  Does this answer excuse Mohammad’s attacks on trade caravans or people watering their cattle or people going out to their fields –all completely unprepared for the violence unleashed on them?  Does it excuse his enslavement of women and children whom he enjoyed himself and handed out to others to enjoy?  Does it excuse his threats to others further afield who were told to convert or pay up or they would be killed?  Mohammad was only attacked for destroying trade caravans.  HE was the attacker of everyone who didn’t grovel to him.  He was a vicious warlord.
Does this excuse explain that allah’s literal truth in the Koran and Mohammad’s statements in the hadith demand the FIGHTING CONTINUE FOR ETERNITY UNTIL ALL THE RELIGION IS ALLAH’S OR JUDGEMENT DAY COMES?   This is an ENDLESS war of Islamic conquest against others, hypocrites and apostates.
When Jesus was attacked he did not tell his followers to kill and did not tell them to kill into eternity to make all the religion Christian!)

*Randa Abdel-Fattah.
She claims the image of Islam in the west is a constructed image starting from the point of view of Islam as a violent, misogynistic, hateful religion ...and sees nothing beautiful or moral.

She accuses Nonie of making sweeping generalisations about Muslims  --(in fact Nonie made accurate statements about the text and laws of Islam, something Ms Abdel-Fattah seems incapable of doing).

She claims we need to make meaningful distinctions for the religion of Islam which I billion see as a guidance for a peaceful, righteous, moral life     and
“stop pushing Muslims into the arms of extremists.”

(Yep, there’s no problem with Islam, just our nasty attitudes towards it.   Don’t mention that Islam’s ‘peace’ only comes after others are eliminated or subjugated or that their ‘morals’ eg paedophilia, polygyny, beating women, slavery and rape etc certainly AREN’T ours!)

The host suggests people fear sharia  when they see Human Rights abuses in Islamic countries-
*Randa Abdel-Fattah.
Rather than deal with the clear human rights abuses written in clear statements in Islam’s text and law Randa gives us an absurd tale of human interpretation, engaging and interacting with the text as this produces the legal result.  It’s not perfect because no-one has perfect access to the divine will. 
Then we get the need for female scholars to overcome patriarchy and ‘return to that glorified past.’

 SBS Insight - Fear of Islam

And finally
“As we accept god is the perfect epitome of justice, goodness and compassion ... our efforts to define the divine will through sharia should be predicated on achieving these results...if people like the Taliban were mindful of these principles, I think that would overcome the travesty, the abuse of Islam to exact an appalling repression of people’s rights...”

(Wow is she in ga-ga land trying to find a way to make the unacceptable, acceptable!   The problem is not lack of female scholars or human interpretation.  Islam’s laws were set down centuries ago and set forever – and there is close agreement across them as my Shafii law text claims over 75 % agreement and what differences there are seem to be small.  The laws are directly derived from Islam’s text and Mohammad’s example so they are clearly based, not developed through faulty ‘interpretation.’  
The Taliban were trained in pure Islamic schools and follow the text to the letter.  According to Indonesia’s Abu Bakir Bashir,  “The closest we ever got to an Islamic state was the Taliban government in Afghanistan” (Noor 2006). As for allah’s justice, goodness and compassion –forget it as it’s not my idea of any of these, quite the reverse!)

Later she agrees that Muslims do share basic principles and beliefs but again tries to excuse the horror of sharia as the result of history, politics and social prejudice

(ie it’s not true to the text and Mohammad’s example that it often matches word-for-word!)

Re crisis of Islamic leadership.
*Randa Abdel-Fattah
“crisis of leadership world-wide and many reasons, one is COLONIALISM.  We used to have training seminaries ...established through private endowment.”

“In the west we need more indigenous western scholarship that understands western way of life and is able to use that understanding using legitimate Islamic sources to bring more scholarship to our way of life in the west.”

(Well colonialism did slow Islam’s slave trade which still continues today and it did stop the severe jizya payments but PLEASE don’t blame others for Islam’s failures!   There is Al Azhar and endless training institutes. Look at the money wasted in Islamic propaganda departments at our universities!  
The problem is Islam  Randa, and you seem to know this because you seem to ask for some ‘western’ version that is really a western existence that allows you to pretend it’s ‘Islamic.’  Are you sure you don’t want to leave Islam -or would the loss of status and 'cash' be too much?)

*Mariam Z. Veiszadeh.

Miriam confuses integration  --which is a sharing of values and a vision of society –with a job and place of residence.  She’s a solicitor living on the North Shore and thinks this means she is integrated.   She understands our concerns re some who live in ‘different’ areas of Sydney
“we need to understand the root cause of that”        (Gee, is it our fault!)

 She complains of Muslim bashing in TV shows and documentaries.
(I know, those reading this site will complain of the endless ‘rosey view of Islam’  in documentaries, stories, articles etc!)

In response to claims of Islam’s violent text ---
She claims that koranic verses were revealed in response to situations at the time.
She claims she is frustrated by those terrorists who commit atrocious crimes in the name of my faith –and it makes her blood boil.  ....for me personally Islam condemns terrorism

She claims Muslims aren’t ‘homogenous’  and says to Yassir Morosi
“If I pose back to you (Yassir) what is Islam and what it stands for, it would be very difficult to define”

Yassir responds –NO, it wouldn’t be at all!

(but, Mariam, the Koran is the literal truth from allah and applies FOREVER.  There is no historical context in the Koran..so who knows?  Is she also unaware that text in the Koran talks of striking terror into others [Koran 8.12, 8.60,  3.151,  59.2..] and beheading them [Koran 8.12, 47.4..].  Many verses tell Muslims to fight until all the religion is allah’sMohammad brags that he has been made Victorious with Terror.  Is she ignorant of her own text or does she just want to pretend it’s not as it really is!   One can’t help thinking her hijabed, elaborate Muslim demure is more for show or look-at-me in her 'corporate' world)

She also complains about the labelling of ‘moderates’

(I agree, there is one Islam and the term ‘moderate’ is a western construct to make us feel better and pretend that Islam isn’t really the BIG problem that it is!)

*Ikebal Patel –Australian Federation of Islamic Councils. 
“Nonie needs to be given an authentic copy of the Koran.”

 (As already noted, Nonie was brought up Muslim and  is a native Arabic speaker .  I have an exMuslim friend who can read the classical Arabic and claims it’s worse in the Arabic and classical Arabic as we in the west get a softened version.)

Ikebal also lists a couple of successful Muslims as a sign of integration –again confusing integration which is the sharing of values and a vision of society – with job success.  Indeed the Muslims in positions of power should make us all fearful for they come with an Islamic agenda and that’s not good for our society at all.  It is our too tolerant, egalitarian society that allows them such success –denied to others in the Islamic world.   Non-Muslims cannot have authority over Muslims.

Later he tries to excuse Islam’s violent passages by claiming they can have a literal meaning, thematic meaning... and can be put in any context.

(But isn’t the Koran the LITERAL truth from allah forever?)

He also claims Muslims have to live under the laws of the country they are in and that although there is only one Islam, Muslims come from different countries so a cultural context comes in.   He also tries to pretend Islam doesn’t hate the Jews which really stretches our gullibility. 

(Occasional, brief ‘tolerance’ by one person does not an ideology make.  Islam’s hatred of Jews is pathological, began with Mohammad and continues today.)

He shamefully trots out Palestine as the ‘root cause’ of some of the problems with Islam’s violence to others.

(Well, Islam’s violence has gone on for 1400 years.   Does Palestine explain the violence to Buddhists, Hindus, Bahai, Mandaeans, Zoroastrians, Sikhs, Animists, Christians, those following Asian or tribal beliefs, ALL over the world!)

*Aisha Novakovich –(responding to Mark Durie’s suggestion that Muslims can have a very different view of society)
She gushes about a
“New paradigm as citizenship which allows the diversity of Muslim communities to engage as a POLITICAL member of the community that we have rights and responsibilities...
“Sense of intercultural empathy –there will be cultural differences but  it’s not about a wholesale denial , about dealing with that difference...”

(Aisha, it’s political Islam that we all fear for very good reasons that you seem unable to consider.  As for your ‘cultural empathy’ –we have too much so TRY SELLING IT IN THE ISLAMIC WORLD as they have NONE! 
I’m sick of Muslims who enter our country then attempt to impose their barbaric, Arab supremacist, totalitarian ideology/culture here under any guise– if this is what you want, immigrate to the Islamic world)

*  Uthman Badar –Hizb ut-Tahrir
‘I’d like to make a point to Randa and the others, that it’s democracy and enlightenment that Islam is compared against as if western liberalism is the standard and sharia here is on trial and we can ask the question –‘well what is the sharia?’

“Fundamentally, I think no-one is silly enough to say there are no fundamental differences between Islam and western ideology ---- the question is, is that behind the rise of anti-Islamic sentiment”

(I wonder if he’d call Randa, Mariam and Reza hypocrites?  We should have heard more from Uthman as they have indeed a very different vision for a truly Islamic society that will strip us of the rights and freedoms we take for granted and they use in the west.  But of course we’ll be thrilled to be the moronic slaves of allah -NOT.)

* Yassir Morosi. --
“there is a tendency in overcoming stereotypes to dismantle Islam into many different things, many different pieces, never-the-less, there’s still an orthodoxy, there’s still a sharia, there’s still concerns [concensus?] and a serious tradition that attempts to interpret these laws –looking for flexibility, looking for engagement and cross-pollinate ideas with modernity doesn’t require us to completely smash the tradition to multiplicities –that’s where I disagree”

In response to ‘stressing Muslim plurality’-
“That’s the MYTH!  Of course with Muslims there is a plurality but ISLAM still has a centre and it’s worrying that Muslims themselves try to dissolve that centre..”

(Agree, don’t confuse individuals with the set ideology of Islam)

In response to Mariam’s (false) claim that ‘for me personally Islam condemns terrorism.’.
“Islam condemns terrorism and at the same time Islam is many ---What’s your reference point for saying it’s wrong?
What’s your reference point for saying racist interpretations of Islam are wrong?
“There has to be a centre for deciding right Islam from wrong Islam”


(Islam is very racist particularly towards black people, Jews, and others.  Violence and repression towards women and non-Muslims is found across the Islamic world due to universal Islamic dictates)

“Go across the Islamic world and you’ll find an orthodoxy that grounds it in the sura and sunna –it’s very clear.  Are we trying to say that 90% of the Muslim world that falls under the category of sunna ? doesn’t exist?”

“I’m moving away from the idea that Islam is nothing more than a catalogue of personal Muslim opinions , that there IS a tradition there, that there is a necessity to engage with the tradition ....

“In our tradition there is still an ascetic, spiritual, LEGAL lineage that goes back to the prophet.

And he has a shot at a supposed ‘white Australia’ that determines what’s acceptable –does he think Islam should determine what’s acceptable!

Re leadership –
“Moderate Muslims are the problem
.  They represent an Islam that ultimately allows other Muslims to reject it because they don’t want to deal with the fundamental problem of how Islam has to integrate

Sadly few people on the program gave the true reasons why there is a rising fear of Islam and often those people got limited speaking time while a lot of time was wasted on highly westernised nominal ‘Muslims’ who had never experienced life under Islam and seemed unable to engage in analysis and rational criticism of Islam.  No evidence from Islam's text and laws was presented which would have supported the statements of the non-Muslims.  The host failed to stop the abuse of Nonie Darwish and insist the discussion was about ideology and  NOT personal attacks. 


References:

1)  Neighbour, Sally.   ‘Sceptics challenge Hirsi Ali’   The Australian.  14/8/10
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/sceptics-challenge-hirsi-ali/story-fn59niix-1225904789257
2)  Noor, Farish. Interview with Ustaz Abu Bakar Bashir Friday, August 18, 2006 
http://www.littlespeck.com/SpecialReport/SpecialRpt-bashir-060819.htm
3)  The Holy Bible:  authorized King James Version.  Printed in great Britain  Collins.
4)  Reliance of the Traveller:  A classic manual of Islamic sacred law.   In Arabic with facing English Text, commentary and appendices edited and translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller  Al-Misri, Ahmad ibn Naqib;  Amana publications  Maryland USA 1994.
Islamic text is available on-
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/
Has a lot of text though ‘diluted’ for western consumption with missing sections.   Note translations and numbering particularly numbering of hadiths can vary considerably.   Bukhari is more consistently numbered than other hadith sets.
The Noble Quran:   endowment for allah’s sake from the custodian of the two holy mosques......King Fahd Complex.   Supplied free from the government of Saudi Arabia.

glorified pas