Question from the editor: Should Australia maintain any diplomatic links with Saudi Arabia?
I recently posted a comment about the crime against foreign workers in the "holy land" and "Allah's house", that is to say in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. I decided to search for more news on the net via Google. There, on the top of the list of the first search result, it said in the Indonesia language "TKW Disiksa Sampai Mati, Dubes Arab Saudi Bilang Takdir", or in English "Foreign Female Workers Were Tortured to Death, Saudi ambassador Said It Was Her Destiny" which made my blood boil. The article said that a female Indonesian worker who had worked as a housemaid in Saudi, had been tortured to death by her employer. Then when the case was presented to the Saudi ambassador in Indonesia, the ambassador said that it was the will of Allah, with no apology given.
It is also quite probable that the poor victim did not receive all her salary during her employment or perhaps got no salary at all, judging from the cruelty of the criminal and the accomplice, that is to say, the Saudi ambassador. So it is likely it was not only a case of murder and torture it was also a case of robbery.
Similar cases have been going on in Saudi (and other Gulf countries) for decades since 1980s or even before that, all without any proper response from the Saudi government. In fact they are hiding the crime. Some numbers of crimes are available through NGOs, but I think they are just the tip of the iceberg. During a visit to the Indonesian embassy in Riyadh some years ago, I overheard a woman complain about her enslavement by her employer. I asked an embassy staff member about it and he said that similar cases were quite common. These women were the ones who could come to the embassy or consulates (there were 2 consulates) because they had to renew their visa every 2 years (I don't know if this visa regulation still applies or not).
Similar cases have been going on in Saudi (and other Gulf countries) for decades since 1980s or even before that, all without any proper response from the Saudi government. In fact they are hiding the crime. Some numbers of crimes are available through NGOs, but I think they are just the tip of the iceberg. During a visit to the Indonesian embassy in Riyadh some years ago, I overheard a woman complain about her enslavement by her employer. I asked an embassy staff member about it and he said that similar cases were quite common. These women were the ones who could come to the embassy or consulates (there were 2 consulates) because they had to renew their visa every 2 years (I don't know if this visa regulation still applies or not).
How many, however, don’t have any chance to report the their cases? There must be plenty, because there are hundreds of thousands Indonesian female workers in Saudi. The embassy has a place for the runaway women who cannot stand enslavement any more. They risk their lives by being alone outside because many wannabe rapists can be found easily among these sex crazed Islamic believers. The luckiest can escape and reach the embassy and meet with the good guys. The not so lucky women are picked on by the police and sent to jail where they may stay behind bars for years without any trial. Some prisons are full of these women. The most unlucky women are raped, robbed and killed by bandits. Or, sold to brothels to become sex slaves (yes, there are brothels in Saudi, in Mekkah too)
A few years ago, there was an article which said there were 15-20 babies born per month from the female
workers. The data came from the arrival and departure information statistics at Jakarta's airport. Most likely, these women have been raped by their employers. These women may have come from other countries like Malaysia, but certainly the Saudi employers were responsible for the babies. And the numbers did not include those who had miscarriages. What I am telling you is only about the Indonesian workers. We should add that there are many crimes against workers from other countries. Imagine the scale of the crime committed for 30 years by the Muslims in a shariah country.
So, where is this Islamic ‘law’ who is so perfect according to the Muslims? Is it the will of Allah that Saudis can rape, torture, enslave and murder non Saudis, including their fellow Muslims?
All these crimes happen especially because of the Islamic teachings which glorify males to become sex maniacs, degrading women as sex objects, treating non Arabs as Arab's "slaves". And it also comes about because of Islamic shariah law which facilitates rapists and murderers to commit crimes without any punishment.
You can check what is really going on in Saudi in the eyes of a Saudi at this SITE.
These 2 links give some views on the women in Saudi, especially the Indonesian women, the lowest kind among people in Saudi according to the Saudis.
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Yes, it was "her destiny," but only because evil Muslims made it her destiny. However, it was not the God of Love's positive will. Also, it was not our wish, nor the wish of people who love and respect humanity.
The God of Love allows evil because He gave us a free will. As you have seen, the evil Muslims commit the most evil in the most demonic, heinous way because many of them are possessed by real demons. The signs are there. I know this to be true because I've had much experience in this sort of thing. We can destroy Islam with Divine Intervention. That's how I and a few warriors destroyed a satanic empire only a few years ago. There were more than 200 miracles during our war.
Yes, it is the will of Allah "that Saudis can rape, torture," et cetera because Allah isn't the God of Love. Allah/Satan is the god of hatred, the god of rape, the god of torture, the god of untimely deaths and much destruction. And the evil Muslims are the children of Allah/Satan.
The God of Love allows evil because He gave us a free will. As you have seen, the evil Muslims commit the most evil in the most demonic, heinous way because many of them are possessed by real demons. The signs are there. I know this to be true because I've had much experience in this sort of thing. We can destroy Islam with Divine Intervention. That's how I and a few warriors destroyed a satanic empire only a few years ago. There were more than 200 miracles during our war.
Yes, it is the will of Allah "that Saudis can rape, torture," et cetera because Allah isn't the God of Love. Allah/Satan is the god of hatred, the god of rape, the god of torture, the god of untimely deaths and much destruction. And the evil Muslims are the children of Allah/Satan.
1
May 01, 2008
Thanks Abu. The violence against women in Islam and the Islamic world in full agreement with Islamic text and law is one of the world's most shameful huge secrets. I cannot comprehend how any woman could be Muslim and this is more true for non-Arabs. Islamic text clearly endorses the supremacy of white, male Arabs--all others are inferior including non-Arab Muslims! Islam is extremely racist and abuses and enslaves black people, Turks, and those with flat faces and small eyes (Chinese, Japanese, Indonesians, Malaysians, ..) (as well as other religious groups)and supports killing them!
In Islam allah determines your entire life including whether you get to paradise pre-birth so if you accept this then you accept that the sick torture, rape, violence and death of this sad lady is indeed allah's will! Those of us who don't believe this crap and who believe in equality, freedom and human rights which the west supposedly champions, should be screaming our heads off at the horror of Islam and openly challenging Islam and the Islamic world --
Why do we have any relationship to the sick Saudis, Emirates or others where slave-trading, violence to females(local or foreign) etc are standard daily practise etc because money talks louder than care for others, humanity or taking a moral stand!
In Islam allah determines your entire life including whether you get to paradise pre-birth so if you accept this then you accept that the sick torture, rape, violence and death of this sad lady is indeed allah's will! Those of us who don't believe this crap and who believe in equality, freedom and human rights which the west supposedly champions, should be screaming our heads off at the horror of Islam and openly challenging Islam and the Islamic world --
Why do we have any relationship to the sick Saudis, Emirates or others where slave-trading, violence to females(local or foreign) etc are standard daily practise etc because money talks louder than care for others, humanity or taking a moral stand!
2
May 01, 2008
Thank you, Abu, for putting into the spotlight the hidden suffering of so many women who simply go to work as maids because of poverty. In addition to poverty they get rape and exploitation. And then some religious justification to boot, for their suffering. When there is a 'sex abuse' scandal in the west, the papers scream it loud and clear and people demand justice. But do the Saudi papers scream about this injustice in their own land? Do the TV and radio scream about it? The utter shame is that people DO know about it and prefer to sweep it under the mental carpet and then say their prayers to Mecca, while the cries of tortured women continue in the next room and street. Even in Islamic terms how can such prayers be pleasing to God, prayers which ignore the suffering of the human beings God himself created? Shame on the Saudis, shame on Islam.
3
May 01, 2008
The more I read about Islam and research what is happening to our world, the more I am sickened by it. As a mother, daughter, sister I am saddened by the fact that if this "Cult" is not exposed and recognized for what it is, then what hope does the future hold for our daughters and grand daughters? I am also saddened by the fact that these "women" who follow Islam, know the truths, yet stay silent and suffer in silence, instead of standing up against it. I would rather die fighting against Islam than live under its barbaric ways. People everywhere need to wake up, stand up and not tolerate this so called "religion" any longer. I am ashamed of our politicians and even our religious leaders for being politically correct and support Islam by saying that it is a "tolerant and peaceful religion". If I hear another politician say that again, I will vomit!!! All I can say to our politicians is "Grow some Balls"!
4
May 01, 2008
JL,
" I would rather die fighting against Islam than live under its barbaric ways."
Me too. Living under Islam is far worse than death.
Funny how Imams go round converting Aborigines by telling them that Islam doesn't discriminate. As we know, in Islam Arabs are superior and even if you convert to Islam, you will be ill-treated as you are not pure Arab.
Islam is racist and cruel. Where are our leaders?
We need to put a stop to it.
" I would rather die fighting against Islam than live under its barbaric ways."
Me too. Living under Islam is far worse than death.
Funny how Imams go round converting Aborigines by telling them that Islam doesn't discriminate. As we know, in Islam Arabs are superior and even if you convert to Islam, you will be ill-treated as you are not pure Arab.
Islam is racist and cruel. Where are our leaders?
We need to put a stop to it.
5
May 02, 2008
Today ArabNews reported that a Filipino nurse and a Western male were arrested for having dinner together. While the male was released after several hours, the poor woman could be imprisoned for four months and receive 100 lashes. What is ironic is that the government of Saudi Arabia is spending billions of dawah missionary funds to propagate this intolerant and abusive model of society around the world.
6
May 02, 2008
The Muslims have found a new way to terrorize. In western India, at a Muslim shrine, Muslims are dropping babies from a height of 50 feet onto a sheet below to bring them good luck. When will the terror of Islam cease? I'll never understand evil Muslims.
7
May 02, 2008
Philip,
I think this would be the right LINK to the report you've mentioned.
To give Islam justice, this custom seems to be more "local" than Muslim, although most sensible religions would forbid it immediately.
I think this would be the right LINK to the report you've mentioned.
To give Islam justice, this custom seems to be more "local" than Muslim, although most sensible religions would forbid it immediately.
8
May 02, 2008
Chris,
"What is ironic is that the government of Saudi Arabia is spending billions of dawah missionary funds to propagate this intolerant and abusive model of society around the world."
Even more ironic is that we in the West are allowing, nay encouraging them.
In fact, it's more than ironic; it's criminal. Our leaders should be accountable for the crimes committed under the influence of Islam e.g. the Muslim gang rapes of Aussie girls in Sydney. They are accessories by allowing Islam in.
Time we used the law courts for their proper purpose - to sue all those enablers - so-called civil rights lawyers, pollies, academics who do "interfaith."
"What is ironic is that the government of Saudi Arabia is spending billions of dawah missionary funds to propagate this intolerant and abusive model of society around the world."
Even more ironic is that we in the West are allowing, nay encouraging them.
In fact, it's more than ironic; it's criminal. Our leaders should be accountable for the crimes committed under the influence of Islam e.g. the Muslim gang rapes of Aussie girls in Sydney. They are accessories by allowing Islam in.
Time we used the law courts for their proper purpose - to sue all those enablers - so-called civil rights lawyers, pollies, academics who do "interfaith."
9
May 02, 2008
Chris - perish the thought that men and women could be friends - this is the bizarre nature of Islam that men and women cannot talk and be friendly without any ulterior motive - it is almost unthinkable in Islam - there is always a realtionship of subservience or dominance - but never of friends of the opposite sex just talking.
ONe way around it would be for the man to dress in full burka, not showing the face and have some nice shoes on - that way they might get away with going out to dinner.
ONe way around it would be for the man to dress in full burka, not showing the face and have some nice shoes on - that way they might get away with going out to dinner.
10
May 02, 2008
Will of allah ? yeah, I like to meet one of these Saudis on the street and it will be a Will of allah that I kick one of these Muslims face in.
11
May 02, 2008
Let me quote what Sayid Qutb has said about the role of the Arabs, he was an Egyptian so certainly he wanted the whole Arab had a role, not just the "royal" Saudis.
"Under Islam the Arabs had, for the first time in history, an international role to play. They also had a powerful state to be taken into consideration by the world powers. They possessed a sweeping force that destroys thrones, conquers empires, and brings down the false, deviating and ignorant readerships in order to take over the leadership of mankind. ... Then and only then, did the Arabs have an identity, a power and a leadership ... The Arabs should remember this well if they want to live and to be powerful and to assume the leadership of mankind."
So, the mentality of the Islamist Arabs is that the Arabs should be the leader of the mankind, more like the Nazi German. No wonder they look down other people, including their own muslim brothers (and sisters).
But probably, these Islamist Arabs are "correct", because those non Arab muslims do look up to these Arabs, especially the "royal" Saudian because they belong to the prophet's clan.
"Under Islam the Arabs had, for the first time in history, an international role to play. They also had a powerful state to be taken into consideration by the world powers. They possessed a sweeping force that destroys thrones, conquers empires, and brings down the false, deviating and ignorant readerships in order to take over the leadership of mankind. ... Then and only then, did the Arabs have an identity, a power and a leadership ... The Arabs should remember this well if they want to live and to be powerful and to assume the leadership of mankind."
So, the mentality of the Islamist Arabs is that the Arabs should be the leader of the mankind, more like the Nazi German. No wonder they look down other people, including their own muslim brothers (and sisters).
But probably, these Islamist Arabs are "correct", because those non Arab muslims do look up to these Arabs, especially the "royal" Saudian because they belong to the prophet's clan.
12
May 03, 2008
Wendy,
We're so lucky here. We can chat to anyone we like, on the bus, at the beach and won't be arrested.
We can't imagine what it would be like living like they do.
Charles,
The Saudis are people like us. I don't like hurting anyone. They become horrid because they follow Islam, which teaches them to hate.
I wish they would all leave Islam.
We're so lucky here. We can chat to anyone we like, on the bus, at the beach and won't be arrested.
We can't imagine what it would be like living like they do.
Charles,
The Saudis are people like us. I don't like hurting anyone. They become horrid because they follow Islam, which teaches them to hate.
I wish they would all leave Islam.
13
May 03, 2008
Indonesia should return to its vedic wisdom past, instead of this Islam they have been forced to endure,,,, how awful
14
May 03, 2008
What is the Saudi regime teaching themselves ? To finally get so isolated from the world and from its own citizens and from the rest of the world . What are they wanting the world to think about them ? (Oh ! they better care .) Nobody is above the International Court of justice . Beacause today the world dos'nt accept these night suit pyjama people and their laws that are beheading and decapitating . The world respects those who respect themselves and respect other countries citizens . And the Saudi government should not be welcome in the countries whose citizens they have imprisoned and beheaded or decapitated . Saudi ordinary people are respected and loved but the government should have no place in the countries whose citizens they have imprisoned , beheaded or decapitated or lashed or tortured .
15
May 03, 2008
Allan,
You've make a very good point here.
Unlike many other Muslim "states" Indonesia has STILL very strong links with its glorious past.
There are the indigenous tribal communities as well as the strong Hindu, Chinese and Christian groups.
They could provide a strong base of support for all those who wish to leave the "religion of peace".
Breath,
It is not the Saudi regime.
It is Islam. It just happens that Sadi Arabia maintains a more pure form of Islam (unlike many other Muslim states).
The current Islamic "problems" are related to the fact that for the true Muslim "visionaries" even Saudi Arabia is too liberal and not truly Islamic.
First of all Islam does not recognize any Muslim states, kings, royalty etc.
From this point of view the Saudi "royals" are simple abomination and apostasy.
They still exist because on the one hand they control the armed forces and their local police and on the other they pay off the "true" Muslims believers, who in turn spread the Islamic revolution elsewhere (eg, th US, Australia, Sudan, Somialia, Indonesia etc).
Their Saudi "royal" heads will be the first to roll should a true Islamic revolution take place in there.
One way or another to best way to slow down the spread of Islam would be to cut off ALL links with the Saudis, UAE, Kuwait etc. The source of Islamic money and most of the current problems.
This of course would not eradicate the problem but would enable us to concentrate on progressive eructation about the true nature of Islam, change its status in non-Muslim countries (no more respected religion but a cult with no tax exemptions etc) and finally it would enable us to provide help to the millions of victims (Muslim and non-Muslim) who suffer under various Islamic regimes.
As you pointed out most of so called "Muslims" in fact good human beings who are victims of centuries of brainwashing.
Indonesia should return to its Vedic wisdom past...
You've make a very good point here.
Unlike many other Muslim "states" Indonesia has STILL very strong links with its glorious past.
There are the indigenous tribal communities as well as the strong Hindu, Chinese and Christian groups.
They could provide a strong base of support for all those who wish to leave the "religion of peace".
Breath,
What is the Saudi regime teaching themselves ?
It is not the Saudi regime.
It is Islam. It just happens that Sadi Arabia maintains a more pure form of Islam (unlike many other Muslim states).
The current Islamic "problems" are related to the fact that for the true Muslim "visionaries" even Saudi Arabia is too liberal and not truly Islamic.
First of all Islam does not recognize any Muslim states, kings, royalty etc.
From this point of view the Saudi "royals" are simple abomination and apostasy.
They still exist because on the one hand they control the armed forces and their local police and on the other they pay off the "true" Muslims believers, who in turn spread the Islamic revolution elsewhere (eg, th US, Australia, Sudan, Somialia, Indonesia etc).
Their Saudi "royal" heads will be the first to roll should a true Islamic revolution take place in there.
One way or another to best way to slow down the spread of Islam would be to cut off ALL links with the Saudis, UAE, Kuwait etc. The source of Islamic money and most of the current problems.
This of course would not eradicate the problem but would enable us to concentrate on progressive eructation about the true nature of Islam, change its status in non-Muslim countries (no more respected religion but a cult with no tax exemptions etc) and finally it would enable us to provide help to the millions of victims (Muslim and non-Muslim) who suffer under various Islamic regimes.
As you pointed out most of so called "Muslims" in fact good human beings who are victims of centuries of brainwashing.
16
May 03, 2008
Alan,
"Indonesia should return to its vedic wisdom past, instead of this Islam they have been forced to endure."
Yes, and the same applies to all other countries that have been overrun by barbarity e.g. Iran should return to its Zoroastrian religion, Afghanistan to its Hindu/Buddhist past.
The common factor linking countries that are now Islamic is that they descend into barbarism and tyranny.
A lesson there for us in Australia!
Breath,
"Nobody is above the International Court of justice."
I only wish this were true. Sadly, the Islamic Arab wealth has facilitated the takeover of all international bodies by Islamists and their supporters, who spread their vicious Nazi-type propaganda to demonise those countries that are democratic and respect human rights.
There is a worldwide moral inversion and it seems many of our leaders are prepared to sell their souls for the Arab/Islamic billions.
Dan,
"the best way to slow down the spread of Islam would be to cut off ALL links with the Saudis, UAE, Kuwait etc. The source of Islamic money and most of the current problems."
I agree. Islam is spreading because of Arab money. We are enabling this spread by allowing sharia into our free Western countries.
We must make sharia finance illegal, shut down Saudi financed mosques and schools etc. It can be done, but it will take strong leadership.
Trouble is, we have pathetic leaders in Australia, who kowtow to the Islamists, and corrupt present and ex politicians, religious leaders and academics who will sell their soul if the price is right.
"Indonesia should return to its vedic wisdom past, instead of this Islam they have been forced to endure."
Yes, and the same applies to all other countries that have been overrun by barbarity e.g. Iran should return to its Zoroastrian religion, Afghanistan to its Hindu/Buddhist past.
The common factor linking countries that are now Islamic is that they descend into barbarism and tyranny.
A lesson there for us in Australia!
Breath,
"Nobody is above the International Court of justice."
I only wish this were true. Sadly, the Islamic Arab wealth has facilitated the takeover of all international bodies by Islamists and their supporters, who spread their vicious Nazi-type propaganda to demonise those countries that are democratic and respect human rights.
There is a worldwide moral inversion and it seems many of our leaders are prepared to sell their souls for the Arab/Islamic billions.
Dan,
"the best way to slow down the spread of Islam would be to cut off ALL links with the Saudis, UAE, Kuwait etc. The source of Islamic money and most of the current problems."
I agree. Islam is spreading because of Arab money. We are enabling this spread by allowing sharia into our free Western countries.
We must make sharia finance illegal, shut down Saudi financed mosques and schools etc. It can be done, but it will take strong leadership.
Trouble is, we have pathetic leaders in Australia, who kowtow to the Islamists, and corrupt present and ex politicians, religious leaders and academics who will sell their soul if the price is right.
17
May 03, 2008
Saudi nationals feel that their rights to sexually abuse house maids go far beyound their rotten desert cesspool of a kingdom.
Fortunately in this case the poor victim got at least some justice:
LINK
Fortunately in this case the poor victim got at least some justice:
WASHINGTON, 1 September 2006 — A Saudi man convicted of sexually assaulting an Indonesian housekeeper and keeping her as a virtual slave was sentenced yesterday to 27 years to life in prison in Colorado.
Homaidan Al-Turki, the 37-year-old Saudi national, denied the charges and blamed anti-Muslim prejudice for the case against him. He said prosecutors persuaded the housekeeper to accuse him after they failed to build a case that he was a terrorist.
LINK
18
May 03, 2008
The Arabs are convinced about their superiorty because of this quranic verse:
There are many translations, which may vary slightly but but the meaning is basically the same. The translation provided below comes from a Muslim source just in case I could be accused of bias.
Quran 3:110 Ye are the best community that hath been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. And if the People of the Scripture had believed it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-livers. LINK1
There are many translations, which may vary slightly but but the meaning is basically the same. The translation provided below comes from a Muslim source just in case I could be accused of bias.
[3.110] You are the best of the nations raised up for (the benefit of) men; you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah; and if the followers of the Book had believed it would have been better for them; of them (some) are believers and most of them are transgressors.LINK2
19
May 03, 2008
There are a few responses from the muslims who are upset because the use of the Arab's crime to discredit Islam. Then, as usual, these muslims mention what happens in the western countries, from their own eyes, of course.
The muslims certainly do not dare to talk about what happens in their holy land which adopts the law of Allah which is supposed to be perfect etc.
So, if the shariah law is that perfect, why we have so many women being abused, tortured, murdered in countries which adopt the shariah law?
Islam is said to protect women, so where is the protection from Islam for these poor women in such an Islamic countries like Saudi or Talibanese Afghan?
If, the western system is bad, morally corrupted etc, then the shariah system is certainly much much worse.
The muslims certainly do not dare to talk about what happens in their holy land which adopts the law of Allah which is supposed to be perfect etc.
So, if the shariah law is that perfect, why we have so many women being abused, tortured, murdered in countries which adopt the shariah law?
Islam is said to protect women, so where is the protection from Islam for these poor women in such an Islamic countries like Saudi or Talibanese Afghan?
If, the western system is bad, morally corrupted etc, then the shariah system is certainly much much worse.
20
May 03, 2008
I think 3:110 is talking about the muslims in general as the best people compared to the non muslims, not the Arab as the best people.
But this verse brings a very stupid attitude which belongs to the muslims, any muslim will think that he/she is better than any non muslim simply because of his/her religion. For example, a child molester and rapist muslim is still considered a better person by the muslims than, let say, Mahatma Gandhi or mother Theresa.
But this verse brings a very stupid attitude which belongs to the muslims, any muslim will think that he/she is better than any non muslim simply because of his/her religion. For example, a child molester and rapist muslim is still considered a better person by the muslims than, let say, Mahatma Gandhi or mother Theresa.
21
May 03, 2008
[9:97] The Arabs are the worst in disbelief and hypocrisy, and the most likely to ignore the laws that GOD has revealed to His messenger. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise
22
May 03, 2008
Nice work DonnyB,,The Koran does state that it is the only source of religious law, exposing this so called Sharia as a faux system of laws. You cannot claim to be muslim and ignore the actual book your prophet delivered. If we all learn exactly what is said in this book we can beat them at their own game and expose they are hiding behind lies to get away with this nonsense...((12:106)) "The majority of those who believe in GOD do not do so without committing idol worship." Sound like anyone we know?
23
May 04, 2008
Mohamed "may he burn in hell forever" really started the most oppressive religion on this planet. The goat herds in the Arab countries think that they are better then anybody else as they believe in the Muslim religion. This religion was started to please uneducated tribesman, with a total disregard for the rights of women. Mohamed "may he burn in hell forever" was after all a pedophile at least according to the available scriptures. So it is no wonder that he pronounced this supposed to be peaceful laws. As far as I can see the Muslim faith is the most oppressive faith on earth and should be eradicated wherever and whenever found. Sorry if I stepped on a few toes, but this is the way I feel.
Regards and peace be with you.
Regards and peace be with you.
24
May 04, 2008
Abu,
I agree. I also think that this particular verse refers to Muslims rather than Arabs (although at the time when these words were written down/spoken there weren't many non-Arab Muslims).
Having said that I must say that what we think is totally irrelevant.
The Qur’an is one big contradiction any way we look at it.
Muslims learnt how to live with it.
This is why "truth" as other religions/cultures understand it has nothing in common with Islamic understanding of truth.
The "invention" of Shariah (and “living by the Sunna) was a consequence of Quranic ambiguity.
This is why it doesn’t really matter what we, personally “chose” as the “true” teachings of Allah for the official Islam is SHARIAH. If you try to deny shariah’s right to exist you will effectively try to destroy Islam and you will be automatically accused of apostasy.
Apostasy according to all schools of Shariah means death.
Now, not all schools of shariah are equally “strict” but they all have one thing in common – the followers have no free choice and must follow the law of Allah as dictated by the local school. If it happens that you are under Hanifi school you will follow Hanifi rules if you are a Shia Muslims you will follow the Jaafari rules and so on.
So far all attempts of reforming Islam became spectacular failures.
Why?
Because they all ended up on a chopping block.
If we were paid a dollar every time a “moderate” Muslim says: “This is not true Islam”, we’d be very rich indeed.
An Example: Timur the Lame (a good Sufi Muslim himself) attacked and butchered millions of other Muslims because he believed that by allowing Hindu into dhimmitude they violated Allah’s teachings.
I am sure all those Muslims killed by him died thinking that he was not following the true Islam.
Great! Do we feel better now?
Of course Timur thought exactly the opposite about those he butchered.
I am sure Khomeini did not follow the true Islam either, Osama bin Laden obviously is a bad Muslim, Muslim Brotherhood certainly does not represent true teachings of Allah, all those bad mullahs in Aceh, who flog ladies for adultery are also bad Muslims for Allah loved all women and certainly his last prophet Muhammad did.
In short - we may all die waiting for the only true Islam to show its beautiful peaceful nature.
I think 3:110 is talking about the Muslims in general as the best people compared to the non Muslims, not the Arab as the best people.
I agree. I also think that this particular verse refers to Muslims rather than Arabs (although at the time when these words were written down/spoken there weren't many non-Arab Muslims).
Having said that I must say that what we think is totally irrelevant.
The Qur’an is one big contradiction any way we look at it.
Muslims learnt how to live with it.
This is why "truth" as other religions/cultures understand it has nothing in common with Islamic understanding of truth.
The "invention" of Shariah (and “living by the Sunna) was a consequence of Quranic ambiguity.
This is why it doesn’t really matter what we, personally “chose” as the “true” teachings of Allah for the official Islam is SHARIAH. If you try to deny shariah’s right to exist you will effectively try to destroy Islam and you will be automatically accused of apostasy.
Apostasy according to all schools of Shariah means death.
Now, not all schools of shariah are equally “strict” but they all have one thing in common – the followers have no free choice and must follow the law of Allah as dictated by the local school. If it happens that you are under Hanifi school you will follow Hanifi rules if you are a Shia Muslims you will follow the Jaafari rules and so on.
So far all attempts of reforming Islam became spectacular failures.
Why?
Because they all ended up on a chopping block.
If we were paid a dollar every time a “moderate” Muslim says: “This is not true Islam”, we’d be very rich indeed.
An Example: Timur the Lame (a good Sufi Muslim himself) attacked and butchered millions of other Muslims because he believed that by allowing Hindu into dhimmitude they violated Allah’s teachings.
I am sure all those Muslims killed by him died thinking that he was not following the true Islam.
Great! Do we feel better now?
Of course Timur thought exactly the opposite about those he butchered.
I am sure Khomeini did not follow the true Islam either, Osama bin Laden obviously is a bad Muslim, Muslim Brotherhood certainly does not represent true teachings of Allah, all those bad mullahs in Aceh, who flog ladies for adultery are also bad Muslims for Allah loved all women and certainly his last prophet Muhammad did.
In short - we may all die waiting for the only true Islam to show its beautiful peaceful nature.
25
May 04, 2008
DonnyB,
Of course the Arabs were the very first victims of Muhammad and his cutthroat companions.
These particular verse refers to non-Muslim Arabs not to Arabs in general.
Muhammad had a bit of a grudge against those fellow Arabs who rejected his pee-weak teachings in Mecca.
The true intent of this thread in the Qur’an was to condemn all those Arabs who were given such a wonderful opportunity to embrace Allah (Arabs were the chosen people) and rejected him.
As a “reward” Arabs had no choice and had to convert to Islam or face death. In this they were treated as other polytheists.
Still - Arabs remain the chosen people. Why do you think little Muslim and Muslimahs in Indo or Bangladesh MUST learn their prayers in Arabic, by heart like parrots without understanding a single word?
Why non-Arabic copies of the Qur’an are called as “interpreted copies” and are not used for reciting or given a status equivalent to those in Arabic?
Isn’t it because Allah communicated his teaching to Muhammad in Arabic – a sacred language of the chosen people.
Of course the Arabs were the very first victims of Muhammad and his cutthroat companions.
These particular verse refers to non-Muslim Arabs not to Arabs in general.
Muhammad had a bit of a grudge against those fellow Arabs who rejected his pee-weak teachings in Mecca.
The true intent of this thread in the Qur’an was to condemn all those Arabs who were given such a wonderful opportunity to embrace Allah (Arabs were the chosen people) and rejected him.
As a “reward” Arabs had no choice and had to convert to Islam or face death. In this they were treated as other polytheists.
Still - Arabs remain the chosen people. Why do you think little Muslim and Muslimahs in Indo or Bangladesh MUST learn their prayers in Arabic, by heart like parrots without understanding a single word?
Why non-Arabic copies of the Qur’an are called as “interpreted copies” and are not used for reciting or given a status equivalent to those in Arabic?
Isn’t it because Allah communicated his teaching to Muhammad in Arabic – a sacred language of the chosen people.
26
May 04, 2008
[9:97] The Arabs are the worst in disbelief and hypocrisy, and the most likely to ignore the laws that GOD has revealed to His messenger. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise
I don't know whose translation is the verse above, I check 5 translations, and all of them do not say like the translation above, all of them say about the Beduins, which is the nomad Arabs, not the Mekah or Medinah inhabitants.
So I think the verse is simply giving excuse and justifying what Muhammad usually did, namely attacking people who refused to submit to him. In this case, the wandering Arab tribes, just like verse 9:5.
These are other translations which say differently from the translation above.
009.097
YUSUFALI: The Arabs of the desert are the worst in Unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger: But Allah is All-knowing, All-Wise.
PICKTHAL: The wandering Arabs are more hard in disbelief and hypocrisy, and more likely to be ignorant of the limits which Allah hath revealed unto His messenger. And Allah is Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR: The dwellers of the desert are very hard in unbelief and hypocrisy, and more disposed not to know the limits of what Allah has revealed to His Messenger; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
I don't know whose translation is the verse above, I check 5 translations, and all of them do not say like the translation above, all of them say about the Beduins, which is the nomad Arabs, not the Mekah or Medinah inhabitants.
So I think the verse is simply giving excuse and justifying what Muhammad usually did, namely attacking people who refused to submit to him. In this case, the wandering Arab tribes, just like verse 9:5.
These are other translations which say differently from the translation above.
009.097
YUSUFALI: The Arabs of the desert are the worst in Unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger: But Allah is All-knowing, All-Wise.
PICKTHAL: The wandering Arabs are more hard in disbelief and hypocrisy, and more likely to be ignorant of the limits which Allah hath revealed unto His messenger. And Allah is Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR: The dwellers of the desert are very hard in unbelief and hypocrisy, and more disposed not to know the limits of what Allah has revealed to His Messenger; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
27
May 04, 2008
How can anyone follow such a hateful religion? I don't know about what's in the Holy book of Islam, but I do know what's happening everywhere in the world. Muslim preachers are telling their followers to kill and die for allah.
When I go to my Church, our Pastor tells us that we should become better people and serve God by helping our neighbours.
That's what I call a religion.
When I go to my Church, our Pastor tells us that we should become better people and serve God by helping our neighbours.
That's what I call a religion.
28
May 04, 2008
The founder of this evil cult could be compared to a modern day gangster. He made an offer to his thugs that they could not refuse. Booty, slaves concubines in this life. Wine ,houries and even beached bottom boys in the Islamic heaven.
Islamic Hell or Jahannum which was an imagination of EVIL MO used primarily for two reasons:
1. To have a torture chamber for all the kafirs (unbelievers and people of other religions)
2. To terrorize people into accepting Islam.
The purpose of Hell in Islam is not to punish the Muslim wrong-doers. Because, for them Mohammed will recommend paradise, beautiful virgins and young boys on the Day of Judgment. His recommendation is final and Allah cannot deny it.
It is available to all murderers, rapists, arsonists, cheats, thugs, pickpockets and pimps provided they are following Islam. On the contrary, a flaming Hell is reserved only for all Hindus, Sikhs, Jews and Christians, no matter how pious and God-fearing they may have been. ISLAM IS EVIL.
Islamic Hell or Jahannum which was an imagination of EVIL MO used primarily for two reasons:
1. To have a torture chamber for all the kafirs (unbelievers and people of other religions)
2. To terrorize people into accepting Islam.
The purpose of Hell in Islam is not to punish the Muslim wrong-doers. Because, for them Mohammed will recommend paradise, beautiful virgins and young boys on the Day of Judgment. His recommendation is final and Allah cannot deny it.
It is available to all murderers, rapists, arsonists, cheats, thugs, pickpockets and pimps provided they are following Islam. On the contrary, a flaming Hell is reserved only for all Hindus, Sikhs, Jews and Christians, no matter how pious and God-fearing they may have been. ISLAM IS EVIL.
29
May 05, 2008
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